Subjects:
[23/Sep/2003:21:14:26] <Father Phillip> Good evening!
Catholic - Fundamentalist Conversations
[23/Sep/2003:21:14:32] <Father Phillip> plyr58: father, how do
we as catholics respond to those who preach that we worship statues and false
idols and saints?
[23/Sep/2003:21:15:00] <Father Phillip> one of my favorite true
sayings goes something like this:
[23/Sep/2003:21:15:23] <Father Phillip> "nobody has ever been
argued into the truth, but MANY people have been LOVED into truth"
[23/Sep/2003:21:15:53] <Father Phillip> i suppose what i mean by
that is that most people who are "accusing" us of doing things like
you mention, are really looking for an argument
[23/Sep/2003:21:16:03] <Father Phillip> and i, for one, really
don't believe in arguing with people
[23/Sep/2003:21:16:05] <Father Phillip> rather
[23/Sep/2003:21:16:27] <Father Phillip> i believe that we should
pray for and love in a gentle, compassionate way those who want to argue with
us
[23/Sep/2003:21:16:46] <Father Phillip> so, in response to your
question, i'd say that our response should be something like:
[23/Sep/2003:21:17:13] <Father Phillip> "as Catholics we WORSHIP
ONLY GOD, nobody else, no other thing"
[23/Sep/2003:21:17:28] <Father Phillip> "our worship is reserved
for God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit"
[23/Sep/2003:21:18:15] <Father Phillip> "we use statues sometimes
as reminders of the good and holy lives that Christians in the past have lived,
but we NEVER worship those people or their statues; worship is only for God!"
[23/Sep/2003:21:18:19] <Father Phillip> ok?
[23/Sep/2003:21:18:38] <Father Phillip> plyr58: ok thank you
[23/Sep/2003:21:18:58] <Father Phillip> and i would also add that
we should PRAY for those good folks who want to argue with us
[23/Sep/2003:21:19:08] <Father Phillip> pray in a gentle, not condescending
way
[23/Sep/2003:21:19:22] <Father Phillip> my pleasure to be of some
assistance
[23/Sep/2003:21:19:54] <Father Phillip> plyr58: i just wish that
the message that comes out in our ministry reached non catholics more often.
[23/Sep/2003:21:20:01] <Father Phillip> true enough
[23/Sep/2003:21:20:17] <Father Phillip> but honestly, i have all
i can say grace over just trying to minister to all the Catholics around!
[23/Sep/2003:21:20:19] <Father Phillip> :-)
[23/Sep/2003:21:20:44] <Father Phillip> and besides that, i'm really
confident that God will get the message out -- God is really good at that sort
of thing!
[23/Sep/2003:21:20:52] <Father Phillip> plyr58: too often the vitriolic
message of hatred against all people non christian and non catholic come out
in the public Pit Preaching
[23/Sep/2003:21:21:18] <Father Phillip> you're certainly right
there is a lot of vitriol out there!
[23/Sep/2003:21:21:46] <Father Phillip> but God loves the pit preachers
just as much as God loves the Pope -- it may be hard to believe, but it's true
[23/Sep/2003:21:22:10] <Father Phillip> our "job", so
to speak, is to remain loving and compassionate in the face of that hateful
provocation
[23/Sep/2003:21:22:29] <Father Phillip> that, after all, is pretty
much what Jesus did on the Cross and with His accusers and tormentors
[23/Sep/2003:21:22:36] <Father Phillip> so, we are called to do
the same
[23/Sep/2003:21:24:17] <Father Phillip> plyr58: it is very difficult
to not be angered by this preaching, but thank you for the guidance
[23/Sep/2003:21:24:25] <Father Phillip> i can certainly understand
your anger
[23/Sep/2003:21:24:36] <Father Phillip> i'm embarrassed to say
that i feel it as well sometimes
[23/Sep/2003:21:24:48] <Father Phillip> that's part of the reason
that i try not to listen to the pit preachers
[23/Sep/2003:21:24:59] <Father Phillip> i feel that i can spend
my time a good bit more constructively!
[23/Sep/2003:21:25:11] <Father Phillip> plus not listening to them
helps to keep my blood pressure down!
[23/Sep/2003:21:25:12] <Father Phillip> :-)
[23/Sep/2003:21:25:56] <Father Phillip> plyr58: i guess that more
than anything I am worried that someone who may be feeling that tug in their
heart towards God will be turned off by these people
[23/Sep/2003:21:26:02] <Father Phillip> what a good person you
are!
[23/Sep/2003:21:26:36] <Father Phillip> my guess is that YOUR example
will more than over-ride "these people" for a person who is feeling
that tug in their hearts toward God
[23/Sep/2003:21:27:08] <Father Phillip> your compassionate, truthful,
loving, prayerful, committed example is what will really help people to respond
to the tug in their hearts
[23/Sep/2003:21:27:35] <Father Phillip> you and your actions and
your words are far more powerful than any pit preacher's (or any priest's, for
that matter!) words
[23/Sep/2003:21:27:40] <Father Phillip> plyr58: thank you
[23/Sep/2003:21:27:44] <Father Phillip> you're most welcome
Click here for more information on this topic.
[23/Sep/2003:21:29:31] <Father Phillip> plyr58: how does that catholic
church feel about homosexuals?
[23/Sep/2003:21:30:05] <Father Phillip> well, i suppose that it
would be accurate to say that the catholic church feels that homosexuals --
like all human persons -- are precious in God's sight
[23/Sep/2003:21:30:18] <Father Phillip> is that what you're really
asking?
[23/Sep/2003:21:32:19] <Father Phillip> plyr58: well, one of my
best friends is gay, and while I love and value him as a friend, i find it difficult
sometimes to be around him knowing his actions go against my faith
[23/Sep/2003:21:32:22] <Father Phillip> gotcha
[23/Sep/2003:21:32:56] <Father Phillip> do you have heterosexual
friends?
[23/Sep/2003:21:33:26] <Father Phillip> plyr58: yes
[23/Sep/2003:21:33:30] <Father Phillip> cool, so do i
[23/Sep/2003:21:33:32] <Father Phillip> :-)
[23/Sep/2003:21:33:54] <Father Phillip> do any of your heterosexual
friends ever perform actions that go against your faith?
[23/Sep/2003:21:34:22] <Father Phillip> plyr58: yes but not on
a systematic basis
[23/Sep/2003:21:34:36] <Father Phillip> you're a lucky man/woman
-- not sure about your gender!
[23/Sep/2003:21:34:47] <Father Phillip> plyr58: man
[23/Sep/2003:21:34:52] <Father Phillip> ok, you're a lucky man!
[23/Sep/2003:21:35:16] <Father Phillip> for instance, do any of
your heterosexual friends tell lies?
[23/Sep/2003:21:35:19] <Father Phillip> fornicate?
[23/Sep/2003:21:35:22] <Father Phillip> drink too much?
[23/Sep/2003:21:35:44] <Father Phillip> misuse their bodies by
being overweight (eek -- that's me!) or by purging themselves?
[23/Sep/2003:21:36:13] <Father Phillip> plyr58: yes yes yes and
yes
[23/Sep/2003:21:36:33] <Father Phillip> yeah, a lot of my hetero-
and homo- sexual friends do all that stuff too
[23/Sep/2003:21:36:38] <Father Phillip> and it's all a bummer
[23/Sep/2003:21:36:57] <Father Phillip> do you have a hard time
being around your straight friends who do those things in a regular way?
[23/Sep/2003:21:37:51] <Father Phillip> plyr58: many of those things
i have done as well, but i have confessed my sins on a fairly regular basis
wiht the hope of not commiting them again much as my friends have
[23/Sep/2003:21:38:03] <Father Phillip> well, once again, i say:
you are a very good person!
[23/Sep/2003:21:38:08] <Father Phillip> plyr58: but the answer
to your questions is sometimes yes
[23/Sep/2003:21:38:36] <Father Phillip> well, good for those times
when you do find it difficult to be around your straight friends who do sinful
stuff
[23/Sep/2003:21:39:21] <Father Phillip> but my suspiscion is that
a lot of the issue is rooted in the following line which you just wrote:
[23/Sep/2003:21:39:27] <Father Phillip> plyr58: also i went to
highschool in upstate newyork, in a predominately Catholic town so I lived ina
predominately homogeneous enviroment
[23/Sep/2003:21:39:40] <Father Phillip> for a lot of us -- me included
[23/Sep/2003:21:40:19] <Father Phillip> the problem is that when
i am confronted with somebody who is so totally different from what we are used
to, we feel uncomfortable
[23/Sep/2003:21:40:36] <Father Phillip> i don't know you or your
gay friend
[23/Sep/2003:21:40:52] <Father Phillip> though i would say that
it's really good that you are open to this person as a friend
[23/Sep/2003:21:41:05] <Father Phillip> (another example of you
being a HECKUVA good guy!)
[23/Sep/2003:21:41:14] <Father Phillip> anyway...i don't know you
or the friend
[23/Sep/2003:21:41:29] <Father Phillip> but my advice to you would
be something like the following:
[23/Sep/2003:21:42:35] <Father Phillip> before trying to make a
moral judgment about your friend's sexual activity, try to understand him and
his actions in a way that reflects the loving and compassionate way that God
sees your friend
[23/Sep/2003:21:42:41] <Father Phillip> plyr58: we were friends
long before he "came out of the closet"
[23/Sep/2003:21:43:08] <Father Phillip> it's good that you have
continued to be his friend since he's come out of the closet
[23/Sep/2003:21:43:21] <Father Phillip> "coming out"
takes a tremendous amount of courage
[23/Sep/2003:21:43:44] <Father Phillip> so often gay people who
come out are met with anger, oppression, and rejection
[23/Sep/2003:21:44:00] <Father Phillip> so the fact that you accepted
him, is yet another compliment of your goodness
[23/Sep/2003:21:44:34] <Father Phillip> the challenge for all of
us -- for ALL of us!!! -- is to try to see every human person as God sees that
person
[23/Sep/2003:21:44:43] <Father Phillip> plyr58: well nothing about
him changed other than his official orientation, and that one fact shold not
make me suddenly hate him
[23/Sep/2003:21:45:00] <Father Phillip> he's a very lucky person
to have you as a friend!
[23/Sep/2003:21:45:45] <Father Phillip> the Christian life -- and
especially a life that is constantly dependent on the Sacraments -- is a life
of growing to become more and more like Christ
[23/Sep/2003:21:45:55] <Father Phillip> ...to see as Christ sees
[23/Sep/2003:21:46:04] <Father Phillip> ...to understand as Christ
understands
[23/Sep/2003:21:46:09] <Father Phillip> ...to love as Christ loves
[23/Sep/2003:21:46:57] <Father Phillip> and generally speaking,
if you read the Gospels carefully, Christ loved every person He saw, understood
the depth of goodness in each person...and we are called on to imitate Him
[23/Sep/2003:21:47:02] <Father Phillip> plyr58: thank you. it has
just been very different for me to go from a place that was overwelmingly catholic
to being told today that i was going to hell, and it shook me
[23/Sep/2003:21:47:06] <Father Phillip> plyr58: deeply
[23/Sep/2003:21:47:16] <Father Phillip> yep, i understand totally!
[23/Sep/2003:21:47:18] <Father Phillip> i really do
[23/Sep/2003:21:47:46] <Father Phillip> but, my friend, i'm willing
to bet my own soul on the fact that you're NOT going to hell
[23/Sep/2003:21:47:59] <Father Phillip> God's love for you is even
deeper than you're being shook!
[23/Sep/2003:21:48:20] <Father Phillip> part of why you came to
the University was to be exposed to a different worldview
[23/Sep/2003:21:48:25] <Father Phillip> a different set of assumptions
[23/Sep/2003:21:48:31] <Father Phillip> a different case of characters
[23/Sep/2003:21:48:37] <Father Phillip> a different way ot thinking
[23/Sep/2003:21:48:45] <Father Phillip> and you're getting your
money's worth!
[23/Sep/2003:21:48:53] <Father Phillip> but you still have your
faith to hold on to
[23/Sep/2003:21:49:13] <Father Phillip> and you have your own goodness
to rely on
[23/Sep/2003:21:49:35] <Father Phillip> and most of all, you have
God's love for you ... which is inexhaustible!
[23/Sep/2003:21:49:39] <Father Phillip> plyr58: yes and i am glad
for my faith because of how troubled the times are\
[23/Sep/2003:21:49:43] <Father Phillip> you and me both!
[23/Sep/2003:21:49:47] <Father Phillip> plyr58: i read what you
said online earlier this year about hell being fairly empty and i had never
actually thought about hell being empty or ful, but i think that you were right
[23/Sep/2003:21:50:07] <Father Phillip> well, i'm glad that you
have used this online resource and i'm glad that it was helpful to you!
[23/Sep/2003:21:50:15] <Father Phillip> that makes everything worthwhile!
[23/Sep/2003:21:50:20] <Father Phillip> students are the best!
Ecumenical and Inter-Religious Dialogue
[23/Sep/2003:21:52:14] <Father Phillip> plyr58: and I think that
my faith helps me to be more open, i have jewish protestant, catholic and athiest
friends and my security in my faith helps me to feel comfortable around them
[23/Sep/2003:21:52:19] <Father Phillip> exacta-mundo!
[23/Sep/2003:21:52:43] <Father Phillip> plyr58: much like i think
it will with my homosexual friend from now on
[23/Sep/2003:21:53:14] <Father Phillip> i certainly will pray for
you and for you friend that both of you will grow in your friendship and that
you will be always deeply comfortable in the expansiveness of our Catholic faith!
[23/Sep/2003:21:53:44] <Father Phillip> by being deeply rooted
in one's own faith, we can approach all people without fear, without defensiveness,
without arguing
[23/Sep/2003:21:54:12] <Father Phillip> being comfortable with
one's own faith tradition allows us the interior freedom to learn from what
is good in other people's faith experience
[23/Sep/2003:21:58:18] <Father Phillip> plyr58: thank you for the
guidance father
[23/Sep/2003:21:58:36] <Father Phillip> you betcha!
[23/Sep/2003:21:58:47] <Father Phillip> it's been a pleasure chatting
with you
[23/Sep/2003:21:59:00] <Father Phillip> if we can ever do anything
for you, please don't hesitate to contact us
[23/Sep/2003:21:59:04] <Father Phillip> plyr58: i just thought
of another question
[23/Sep/2003:21:59:08] <Father Phillip> shoot
[23/Sep/2003:22:00:30] <Father Phillip> plyr58: does embracing
my jewish friends faith (rosh ashana? the fasting etc) reflect negatively on
my own faith?
[23/Sep/2003:22:00:34] <Father Phillip> not at all!
[23/Sep/2003:22:00:47] <Father Phillip> we are the spiritual children
of Sarah and Abraham
[23/Sep/2003:22:01:22] <Father Phillip> the new testament says
that we are the "new jerusalem"
[23/Sep/2003:22:01:58] <Father Phillip> so, learning from and being
part of (in ways that are appropriate) the worship and spiritual experience
of your Jewish friends is a good thing
[23/Sep/2003:22:03:01] <Father Phillip> plyr58: to learn about
each other's faith
[23/Sep/2003:22:03:04] <Father Phillip> plyr58: and be able to
know one another better
[23/Sep/2003:22:03:07] <Father Phillip> precisely
[23/Sep/2003:22:03:32] <Father Phillip> we can never fully understand
our own faith without understanding our Jewish mothers and fathers in faith
[23/Sep/2003:22:03:56] <Father Phillip> plus, just getting to know
other persons of faith (any faith, but ESPECIALLY, the Jewish faith) enriches
us
[23/Sep/2003:22:04:22] <Father Phillip> Newman is named for John
Henry Cardinal Newman -- an English theologian in the 19th century
[23/Sep/2003:22:04:52] <Father Phillip> when he was made a Cardinal
by Pope Leo XIII, Newman chose as his motto, "Cor ad cor loquitur"
[23/Sep/2003:22:04:59] <Father Phillip> which means "heart
speaking to heart"
[23/Sep/2003:22:05:38] <Father Phillip> i think that by getting
to know people of other faith traditions (again: especially Jewish people) their
hearts speak to our hearts and vice versa
[23/Sep/2003:22:05:53] <Father Phillip> and that "heart-felt
communication" always makes us better people
[23/Sep/2003:22:06:09] <Father Phillip> and hopefully, it will
help our (Jewish) friends to become a bit better as well
[23/Sep/2003:22:10:37] <Father Phillip> plyr58: i went to listen
to eli weizel last week and he told a story. he said that one day all the christians
and jews and muslims decided to stop fighting and wait for the coming of the
messiah together and one day he came and the rabbis, priest/preachers and the
leaders of the muslim chuch were sitting together
[23/Sep/2003:22:12:00] <Father Phillip> plyr58: he opened his mouth
to speak and they all said, "please dont say if youve been here already!"
[23/Sep/2003:22:12:21] <Father Phillip> precisely
[23/Sep/2003:22:12:32] <Father Phillip> (where did you hear wiesel?)
[23/Sep/2003:22:13:04] <Father Phillip> plyr58: he was at meredith
college
[23/Sep/2003:22:13:07] <Father Phillip> dang!
[23/Sep/2003:22:13:17] <Father Phillip> wish i'd known that; i
love to listen to him speak!
[23/Sep/2003:22:13:23] <Father Phillip> plyr58: his message of
peace and love really applies to what we have been talking about tonight i think
and i wish more than the few hundred that were there could have eard him speak
[23/Sep/2003:22:13:30] <Father Phillip> plyr58: he was wonderful
[23/Sep/2003:22:13:37] <Father Phillip> truly, he is a great, great
man
[23/Sep/2003:22:13:51] <Father Phillip> plyr58: instead the DMB
concert sold out
[23/Sep/2003:22:14:04] <Father Phillip> well, we all have out priorities!
[23/Sep/2003:22:14:08] <Father Phillip> plyr58: speaks volumes
of our times
[23/Sep/2003:22:14:11] <Father Phillip> maybe...but
[23/Sep/2003:22:14:27] <Father Phillip> i think YOU speak many
more and many more important volumes about our times
[23/Sep/2003:22:15:22] <Father Phillip> now's when you're supposed
to say, "awww, shucks!"
[23/Sep/2003:22:15:36] <Father Phillip> (or do yankee boys such
as yourself say things like that?!?!?
[23/Sep/2003:22:15:39] <Father Phillip> plyr58: lol
[23/Sep/2003:22:16:29] <Father Phillip> one other word about Weisel
[23/Sep/2003:22:17:07] <Father Phillip> some of what he does and
thinks systematically is against our faith, yet we all agree that he is a remarkable
man -- close to God
[23/Sep/2003:22:17:45]
<Father Phillip> plyr58: i was horrified to learn that some of
the AEPi brothers canno even step foot into the door of some of the fraternities
on campus and amazed when i was regected by some for being cathic and not protestant
[23/Sep/2003:22:18:06] <Father Phillip> racism and classism and
prejudice abound here as in most places
[23/Sep/2003:22:18:13] <Father Phillip> wish it weren't so, but
'tis
[23/Sep/2003:22:18:49] <Father Phillip> the challenge for Catholic
Christians is not to fall to that same level or reactive small-mindedness
[23/Sep/2003:22:19:00] <Father Phillip> plyr58: but if what weisel
does and thinks systematically goes for his faith does that make him less holy?
or a muslim, or a methodist, or a jahovas witness?
[23/Sep/2003:22:19:08] <Father Phillip> good questions
[23/Sep/2003:22:19:51] <Father Phillip> i think that if each of
us recognizes who we are as a gift from God and we try to live that gift in
absolute fidelity to God, then i think that makes us holy
[23/Sep/2003:22:19:58] <Father Phillip> plyr58: hopefully someday
i will help to change that
[23/Sep/2003:22:20:02] <Father Phillip> plyr58: bigotry i mean
[23/Sep/2003:22:20:04] <Father Phillip> you will
[23/Sep/2003:22:20:15] <Father Phillip> i'm absolutely confident
that you will help to change that
[23/Sep/2003:22:20:22] <Father Phillip> but don't wait until "someday"
[23/Sep/2003:22:20:36] <Father Phillip> you have to work today,
where you are, with whomever you are associated
[23/Sep/2003:22:20:45] <Father Phillip> to change all the elements
of bigotry
[23/Sep/2003:22:21:01] <Father Phillip> ageism, sexism, homophobia,
classism, racism
[23/Sep/2003:22:21:33] <Father Phillip> it's constant challenge
and promise of our being human
[23/Sep/2003:22:21:37] <Father Phillip> plyr58: i want to be a
constitutional attorney and help to try to erase this hate from our nation
[23/Sep/2003:22:21:52] <Father Phillip> and i will proudly support
you in your vocation
[23/Sep/2003:22:21:56] <Father Phillip> plyr58: because i think
indifference to injustice is injustice
[23/Sep/2003:22:22:01] <Father Phillip> well, of course, you're
right
[23/Sep/2003:22:22:21] <Father Phillip> apathy about indifference
is not only injustice, it is sinful
[23/Sep/2003:22:22:56] <Father Phillip> and as a catholic, you
must also work and pray to erase injustice from the Church as well
[23/Sep/2003:22:23:14] <Father Phillip> you must work to make sure
that lay people who work for the Church are paid just wages, for instance
[23/Sep/2003:22:24:28] <Father Phillip> plyr58: but many times
i feel I am only one man, I am still young, no one will listen and I have to
fight the temptation to be silent. but after today especially i dont think i
will be able to be silent any longer
[23/Sep/2003:22:24:51] <Father Phillip> my young friend, your friends
will listen to you...and even more importantly, your God will listen to you
[23/Sep/2003:22:25:00] <Father Phillip> and btw, i'm delighted
to be listening to you :-)
[23/Sep/2003:22:25:34] <Father Phillip> plyr58: thank you its nice
to have this forum to speak to you in
[23/Sep/2003:22:25:38] <Father Phillip> awww, shucks
[23/Sep/2003:22:25:46] <Father Phillip> plyr58: lol
[23/Sep/2003:22:25:50] <Father Phillip> :-)
[23/Sep/2003:22:26:06] <Father Phillip> but remember that speaking
in anger or defensively usually doesn't help
[23/Sep/2003:22:26:27] <Father Phillip> nor does speech that arises
from fear help -- as a rule
[23/Sep/2003:22:26:45] <Father Phillip> rather, reasoned, throughtful
speech that has been researched and prayed about
[23/Sep/2003:22:26:59] <Father Phillip> that's the kind of talking
that might help the most
[23/Sep/2003:22:27:19] <Father Phillip> plyr58: yes and i lost
my temper today with that hatefilled man and I have asked God to forgive me
[23/Sep/2003:22:27:36] <Father Phillip> i have it on very good
authority that God is very pleased to forgive you!
[23/Sep/2003:22:27:41] <Father Phillip> God and i are tight
[23/Sep/2003:22:28:01] <Father Phillip> plyr58: so i hear
[23/Sep/2003:22:28:12] <Father Phillip> well, my friend, don't
believe everything you hear!
[23/Sep/2003:22:28:38] <Father Phillip> never let another's hate
infiltrate your soul, mind, or heart
[23/Sep/2003:22:29:01] <Father Phillip> that's really all the counter-spirit,
as St. Ignatius of Loyola, calls 'him'
[23/Sep/2003:22:29:22] <Father Phillip> that's all the counter-spirit
wants
[23/Sep/2003:22:31:56] <Father Phillip> plyr58: well thankyou fahter
for your guidance tonight and i am goin to try to make it to the seminar tomorrow
night
[23/Sep/2003:22:32:00] <Father Phillip> okey dokey
[23/Sep/2003:22:32:05] <Father Phillip> look forward to seeing
you
[23/Sep/2003:22:32:09] <Father Phillip> God bless you!
[23/Sep/2003:22:32:17] <Father Phillip> plyr58: you too
[23/Sep/2003:22:32:18] <Father Phillip> ciao