October 21, 2003
Subjects:
[21/Oct/2003:21:47:37]
<Father Phillip> ktrene: This is my first time checking out this
chat room , Hello Father Phillip
[21/Oct/2003:21:47:42] <Father Phillip> hey!
[21/Oct/2003:21:47:50] <Father Phillip> we're pretty laid back
here
[21/Oct/2003:21:48:01] <Father Phillip> ktrene: Is there anyone
else in this chat room or just the two of us?
[21/Oct/2003:21:48:23] <Father Phillip> just the two of us right
now...i have a thing that counts the people, but you can't see them'it
[21/Oct/2003:21:48:47] <Father Phillip> ktrene: oh okay so I can't
see others questions then?
[21/Oct/2003:21:49:00] <Father Phillip> you can only see them if
i as the moderator decide to post them
[21/Oct/2003:21:49:11] <Father Phillip> ktrene: oh okay i see
[21/Oct/2003:21:49:30] <Father Phillip> i see everybody's questions
and choose from among them which ones to post for the "whole" room
to see
[21/Oct/2003:21:49:47] <Father Phillip> ktrene: well can i dive
right in with some ??s that i've had?
[21/Oct/2003:21:49:52] <Father Phillip> go for it!
[21/Oct/2003:21:51:22] <Father
Phillip> ktrene: well just to give you some background I've grown up
Catholic so I know a lot about it, I wouldn't consider myself a Catholic anymore
more of a protestant but my whole fam. is catholic, so i was just wondering
about some cath. traditions
[21/Oct/2003:21:51:42] <Father Phillip> thanks, that's helpful
[21/Oct/2003:21:52:13] <Father Phillip> i'll try to answer whatever
questions you may have
[21/Oct/2003:21:52:25] <Father Phillip> ktrene: i'm reading a book
that raises a lot of my concerns about catholicism, so i'd been praying about
it a lot, (about my confusion) and the next day I saw the ad int the school
newspaper and I figure it's a God thing, so here I am
[21/Oct/2003:21:52:29] <Father Phillip> that's very cool
[21/Oct/2003:21:52:39] <Father Phillip> and i would say that it's
probably the Holy Spirit!
[21/Oct/2003:21:52:44] <Father Phillip> God works that way
[21/Oct/2003:21:52:47] <Father Phillip> ::-)
[21/Oct/2003:21:53:23] <Father Phillip> the main thing is that
you're praying about things that are important to you -- prayer is the key!
[21/Oct/2003:21:54:53] <Father
Phillip> ktrene: haha, okay well i don't really understand why it is
neccessary for the Pope, Bishops, Cardinals and all that jazz, i learned in
a class that cath. believe that the authorities can only interpret the Bible,
and that we shouldn't even need to read the Bible since priest will interpret
it for us? It's as thought Priests are moderators between us and God?
[21/Oct/2003:21:55:18] <Father Phillip> good questions
[21/Oct/2003:21:55:22] <Father Phillip> well to begin
[21/Oct/2003:21:55:49] <Father Phillip> Catholics believe that
in the New Testament the Lord set up the Church with deacons, priests, and bishops
[21/Oct/2003:21:56:12] <Father Phillip> so we definitely believe
that those 3 orders of ordained leadership are necessary
[21/Oct/2003:21:56:34] <Father Phillip> now, things like cardinals
and all that jazz are definitely non-essential add-ons
[21/Oct/2003:21:56:38] <Father Phillip> ktrene: because of Matthew
16?
[21/Oct/2003:21:56:48] <Father Phillip> well, sort of because of
Matthew 16
[21/Oct/2003:21:57:01] <Father Phillip> but in what are called
the Pastoral Epistles
[21/Oct/2003:21:57:07] <Father Phillip> over toward the end of
the New Testament
[21/Oct/2003:21:57:17] <Father Phillip> like Timothy I and II
[21/Oct/2003:21:57:30] <Father Phillip> we see that the Church
had deacons and presbyters
[21/Oct/2003:21:57:41] <Father Phillip> presbyters in Greek means
elders or priests
[21/Oct/2003:21:57:48] <Father Phillip> either is a legitimate
translation
[21/Oct/2003:21:58:06] <Father Phillip> and in those same places
there are episcopoi
[21/Oct/2003:21:58:14] <Father Phillip> which means overseers or
bishops
[21/Oct/2003:21:58:37] <Father Phillip> so we have concluded for
as long as there's been a Catholic Church -- 2000 years give or take --
[21/Oct/2003:21:58:50] <Father Phillip> that God wants us to have
deacons, priests and bishops
[21/Oct/2003:21:59:03] <Father Phillip> since it's in God's Word,
the Sacred Scriptures
[21/Oct/2003:21:59:13] <Father Phillip> ktrene: okay so Presbyterians
and episcolpals believe that the elders act as how catholics believe bishops
do?
[21/Oct/2003:21:59:19] <Father Phillip> well, actually,
[21/Oct/2003:21:59:42] <Father Phillip> Presbyterians believe that
a person is ordained to be a deacon, priest, and bishop
[21/Oct/2003:21:59:55] <Father Phillip> they actually believe in
what is called this "three-fold ministry"
[21/Oct/2003:22:00:14] <Father Phillip> but that ministry is focused
in one person
[21/Oct/2003:22:00:29] <Father Phillip> whereas in the Catholic
Church different persons often serve in the three different orders
[21/Oct/2003:22:00:47] <Father Phillip> and in the Episcopal Church
they definitely have three different orders of ordained service
[21/Oct/2003:22:00:50] <Father Phillip> ktrene: awesome! i'm so
glad to see it biblically based!
[21/Oct/2003:22:01:15] <Father Phillip> oh yeah -- most everything
-- not everything -- but definitely MOST everything we do is biblically based
The Way Catholics Use the Bible
Click here to read more information on this topic.
[21/Oct/2003:22:01:29] <Father Phillip> now -- about your question
about reading the Bible
[21/Oct/2003:22:01:59] <Father Phillip> with infallible authority
the Catholic Church teaches that "ignorance of the Scripture is ignorance
of Christ"
[21/Oct/2003:22:02:16] <Father Phillip> that is to say, we cannot
know Christ Jesus fully without knowing the Sacred Scripture
[21/Oct/2003:22:02:45] <Father Phillip> in all truth, i'm sorry
to say that way too many Catholics fail to read and study and pray over the
Scriptures like the Church wants them/us to do
[21/Oct/2003:22:02:58] <Father Phillip> but we definitely want
our folks to read and to know and to love the Bible
[21/Oct/2003:22:03:03] <Father Phillip> ktrene: that'sgood to hear
[21/Oct/2003:22:03:09] <Father Phillip> it is VERY good to hear!
[21/Oct/2003:22:03:30] <Father Phillip> and yes, a priest is a
kind of "moderator" between humanity and God
[21/Oct/2003:22:04:03] <Father Phillip> in the New Testament book
of Hebrews, it says that every priest is supposed to be an intermediary between
God and God's people
[21/Oct/2003:22:04:16] <Father Phillip> so we don't have any problem
saying that priests serve in that way
[21/Oct/2003:22:04:19] <Father Phillip> ktrene: yeah, i've been
Catholic for my whole life and was never encouraged to read the Bible
[21/Oct/2003:22:04:38] <Father Phillip> yep, i'm afraid that we
have not done a good job encouraging people to read the Bible
[21/Oct/2003:22:04:44] <Father Phillip> slowly, slowly, slowly
[21/Oct/2003:22:04:50] <Father Phillip> we'll get there -- please
God!
[21/Oct/2003:22:05:06] <Father Phillip> ktrene: sorry i don't mean
to sound challenging, i just like to read direct quotes, where in Hebrews so
I can read it for myself?
[21/Oct/2003:22:05:13] <Father Phillip> it's not challenging at
all
[21/Oct/2003:22:05:18] <Father Phillip> glad you're asking
[21/Oct/2003:22:05:45] <Father Phillip> Hebrews 5:1--6
[21/Oct/2003:22:07:08] <Father Phillip> ktrene: okay i just read
it. but God also wants us to read it personally as well, don't you agree?
[21/Oct/2003:22:07:13] <Father Phillip> well of course!
[21/Oct/2003:22:07:27] <Father Phillip> God wants each of us to
know God more and more deeply and personally
[21/Oct/2003:22:07:39] <Father Phillip> and one of the very best
ways to do that is to read and prayer through the Scripture
[21/Oct/2003:22:07:46] <Father Phillip> that's the teaching of
the Catholic Church
[21/Oct/2003:22:07:56] <Father Phillip> even though we haven't
done a very good job communicating that
[21/Oct/2003:22:08:00] <Father Phillip> shame on us!
[21/Oct/2003:22:08:35] <Father Phillip> ktrene: In my class that
I was talking about before, they described that Catholics believe that the Sacraments
are the way to Salvation along with believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God
[21/Oct/2003:22:08:50] <Father Phillip> well, er, that's kind of
right but not at all the whole story
[21/Oct/2003:22:09:35] <Father Phillip> we Catholics believe that
in the Sacraments Jesus Christ, Who is the Son of God, is ACTUALLY and REALLY
present so it is Jesus Himself who brings us salvation in the Sacraments
[21/Oct/2003:22:09:41] <Father Phillip> make sense?
[21/Oct/2003:22:10:28] <Father Phillip> when we consume the Body
and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is making
His home in our bodies
[21/Oct/2003:22:10:45] <Father Phillip> in the Eucharist we are
accepting Jesus Christ personally and deeply into our lives as Saviour
[21/Oct/2003:22:10:51] <Father Phillip> as our Saviour
[21/Oct/2003:22:11:15] <Father Phillip> every time we receive the
Eucharist we are renewing that personal covenant of love and forgiveness and
compassion with Jesus the Risen Saviour
[21/Oct/2003:22:11:40] <Father Phillip> ktrene: is that biblical?
so can someone who has not done even one sacrament still be saved, just because
s/he has not done the actions of the sacraments, but even if s/he truly follows
Jesus as a Savior
[21/Oct/2003:22:11:49] <Father Phillip> of course it's biblical
[21/Oct/2003:22:12:14] <Father Phillip> in the Bible Jesus says,
"This IS my Body; this IS my Blood"
[21/Oct/2003:22:12:28] <Father Phillip> He doesn't say, "this
just sort of represents my Body and my Blood"
[21/Oct/2003:22:13:18] <Father Phillip> and of course a person
who's never had any Sacrament can be saved as long as she/he knows, loves and
follows Jesus
[21/Oct/2003:22:13:38] <Father Phillip> we can't tell God how to
work -- God can and does save whomever He pleases
[21/Oct/2003:22:13:54] <Father Phillip> God just gives us the Sacraments
as a tremendous help on the road to salvation
[21/Oct/2003:22:14:09] <Father Phillip> along with the Bible which
is the other great help on that journey toward eternal life
[21/Oct/2003:22:14:31] <Father Phillip> ktrene: sorry that question
was for a sentence before
[21/Oct/2003:22:14:34] <Father Phillip> ktrene: it was for about
10 sentences earlier, i do understand the part about eucharist
[21/Oct/2003:22:14:43] <Father Phillip> glad you understand the
Eucharist stuff!
[21/Oct/2003:22:14:44] <Father Phillip> :-)
[21/Oct/2003:22:14:56] <Father Phillip> what were you asking about
10 sentences earlier?
[21/Oct/2003:22:15:05] <Father Phillip> i missed it, i'm afraid
[21/Oct/2003:22:15:16] <Father Phillip> i'm old but really nice
[21/Oct/2003:22:15:17] <Father Phillip> :-)
Baptism Necessary for Salvation?
[21/Oct/2003:22:16:26] <Father
Phillip> ktrene: it seems to me that protestants believe that the sacrament
of baptism, is similar to when protestants say that a person is "born again"
by choosing Jesus as their Lord and Savior
[21/Oct/2003:22:16:38] <Father Phillip> yep, i'd agree with that
assessment
[21/Oct/2003:22:16:42] <Father Phillip> ktrene: Very Nice :)
[21/Oct/2003:22:16:52] <Father Phillip> awwwww, shucks!
[21/Oct/2003:22:18:43] <Father Phillip> ktrene: and for protestants,
that is the only neccessary "action" that we need to do as a Christian,
the rest is works through faith, but not neccessary for salvation, only the
grace received at the baptism (or acceptance of Jesus) is neccessary for Salvation.
[21/Oct/2003:22:19:01] <Father Phillip> ktrene: that was more a
statement, but do you agree or am i off?
[21/Oct/2003:22:19:08] <Father Phillip> no, i think you're on the
money
[21/Oct/2003:22:19:21] <Father Phillip> but i would also say that
we Catholics pretty much agree with that
[21/Oct/2003:22:19:33] <Father Phillip> Baptism is the only Sacrament
necessary for salvation
[21/Oct/2003:22:19:58] <Father Phillip> and the "works"
we preform are actually responses to the unimaginable goodness of God
[21/Oct/2003:22:20:01] <Father Phillip> ktrene: awesome, i love
common ground!
[21/Oct/2003:22:20:05] <Father Phillip> me too!
Role of the Priest in Reconciliation
[21/Oct/2003:22:21:09] <Father Phillip> ktrene: okay i'm going
to move on... can we confess our sins to God without going through a preist?
and if so, why do we always do it through Preists?
[21/Oct/2003:22:21:26] <Father Phillip> of course we can confess
our sins to God without going through a priest
[21/Oct/2003:22:21:39] <Father Phillip> God is always delighted
to hear from us!!! --- always!
[21/Oct/2003:22:21:45] <Father Phillip> ktrene: sorry i'm spelling
that wrong, priest
[21/Oct/2003:22:21:52] <Father Phillip> i do love a good speller!
[21/Oct/2003:22:21:53] <Father Phillip> :-)
[21/Oct/2003:22:22:13] <Father Phillip> i would think that most
Catholics don't "always do it through priests"
[21/Oct/2003:22:22:45] <Father Phillip> i think most Catholics
express their contrition and sorrow for sins directly far more often than they
go to a priest for sacramental absolution
[21/Oct/2003:22:22:50] <Father Phillip> and that's perfectly fine
[21/Oct/2003:22:23:13] <Father Phillip> but having the option of
a priest is extremely healthy and life-giving
[21/Oct/2003:22:23:50] <Father Phillip> from a psychological point-of-view,
having another human being to express in words the compassion and forgiveness
of God is very helpful
[21/Oct/2003:22:23:55] <Father Phillip> it's very "incarnational"
[21/Oct/2003:22:24:16] <Father Phillip> the Son of God didn't become
a book; he became a human being!
[21/Oct/2003:22:24:27] <Father Phillip> and so we need human beings
to express the presence and love of Jesus
[21/Oct/2003:22:24:33] <Father Phillip> ktrene: i understand that
the Bible also encourages us to confess our sins to others along with God, but
some misunderstand it and believe that Priest absolve sins only
[21/Oct/2003:22:24:37] <Father Phillip> ktrene: i understand confessing
to sins to one another, but it seems to me that only Jesus can absolve a sin,
a priest could listen and give advice, but it seems that Priests take our saviors
role when then absolve sins
[21/Oct/2003:22:24:51] <Father Phillip> ktrene: I like that about
the Son of God becoming a man not a book
[21/Oct/2003:22:24:54] <Father Phillip> we aim to please
[21/Oct/2003:22:24:56] <Father Phillip> :-)
[21/Oct/2003:22:25:19] <Father Phillip> well now...this gets a
bit technical but it's important
[21/Oct/2003:22:25:42] <Father Phillip> Catholics believe that
only a priest can absolve sacramentally
[21/Oct/2003:22:25:44] <Father Phillip> BUT
[21/Oct/2003:22:26:00] <Father Phillip> remember what we said about
Jesus being TRULY and REALLY present in the Eucharist?
[21/Oct/2003:22:26:29] <Father Phillip> well, in a similar way,
we believe that Christ Jesus is TRULY and REALLY present and acting in 7 of
the Sacraments
[21/Oct/2003:22:26:49] <Father Phillip> so we would say that it
is, indeed, Jesus who absolves in the Sacrament of Reconciliation
[21/Oct/2003:22:27:18] <Father Phillip> but we would say that Jesus
has in His divine wisdom chosen to allow only the ordained to share this particular
aspect of His ministry
[21/Oct/2003:22:27:23] <Father Phillip> ktrene: so the Holy Spirit
is with you when you absolve sins?
[21/Oct/2003:22:27:25] <Father Phillip> yepper
[21/Oct/2003:22:27:56] <Father Phillip> when the Risen Christ acts
in the person of the priest in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, God the Holy
Spirit also acts as does God the Father
[21/Oct/2003:22:28:21] <Father Phillip> no priest has any authority
at all to absolve sins -- we are sinners just like you and everybody else
[21/Oct/2003:22:29:09] <Father Phillip> but out of God's unbelievable
goodness and majesty, God allows sinful persons -- ordained sinful persons --
to be the means through which that divine grace is brought to women and men
in the Sacrament of Reconcilation
[21/Oct/2003:22:29:18] <Father Phillip> ktrene: why do you feel
that He chose priests to absolve sins, I just feel like that is redundant of
God, since He already sent his Son as the moderator, why do we need two?
[21/Oct/2003:22:29:21] <Father Phillip> two?!?!?!
[21/Oct/2003:22:29:33] <Father Phillip> we have only ONE Mediator!
[21/Oct/2003:22:29:38] <Father Phillip> and that's Jesus Christ
[21/Oct/2003:22:29:57] <Father Phillip> but because you and I are
so incredibly stupid, we need lots and lots and lots of reminders
[21/Oct/2003:22:30:10] <Father Phillip> and that's what priests
are in their/our sacramental roles
[21/Oct/2003:22:30:21] <Father Phillip> we are living, breathing
reminders of Jesus and His work
[21/Oct/2003:22:30:43] <Father Phillip> ...of forgiving specifically
in the Sacrament of Reconciliation
[21/Oct/2003:22:30:46] <Father Phillip> ktrene: sorry Jesus as
one and a priest's body (filled with the Holy Spirit) as the other, why can't
we just have Jesus, why do we need an ordained priest?
[21/Oct/2003:22:30:58] <Father Phillip> (i know what you meant
-- i was just kidding with you!)
[21/Oct/2003:22:31:14] <Father Phillip> ktrene: okay gotcha:)
[21/Oct/2003:22:31:17] <Father Phillip> good!
[21/Oct/2003:22:31:23] <Father Phillip> we don't NEED ordained
priests
[21/Oct/2003:22:31:48] <Father Phillip> God could have chosen to
bring salvation to us by saying, "Eat Peanut M&M's and thou shalt be
saved."
[21/Oct/2003:22:32:08] <Father Phillip> but for reasons that I'm
not smart enough to figure out, God chose to save us in Jesus
[21/Oct/2003:22:32:34] <Father Phillip> and God chose to allow
us to have a community of faith called the Church in which to live out our personal
journeys toward Jesus
[21/Oct/2003:22:32:55] <Father Phillip> and God chose for some
crazy reason to allow ordained priests to be reminders of Jesus' Presence
[21/Oct/2003:22:32:58] <Father Phillip> ktrene: as fellowship and
encouragement!
[21/Oct/2003:22:33:03] <Father Phillip> preeeee-cisely!
[21/Oct/2003:22:34:03] <Father Phillip> in theological terms, Catholic
tradition says that God deigns to allow humanity to be "co-operators"
with God in the work of salvation
[21/Oct/2003:22:34:09] <Father Phillip> God doesn't NEED us
[21/Oct/2003:22:34:28] <Father Phillip> but to show how amazingly
generous God is, God allows us to co-operate with Him
[21/Oct/2003:22:34:34] <Father Phillip> ktrene: about God chosing
ordained priests is that where you were talking about Tim 1 and 2?
[21/Oct/2003:22:34:41] <Father Phillip> yeah, among other places
[21/Oct/2003:22:35:10] <Father Phillip> in many ways it's the Christian
way of appropriating some of the heritage we've been given from the Hebrew Bible/Jewish
tradition
The Way Catholics Use the Bible, cont.
[21/Oct/2003:22:36:32] <Father Phillip> ktrene: it just seems that
Catholics took those few passages too far, look at how big the New Test. is
and how much it refers to Salvation through faith, and to base so much of a
religion on sacraments through Ordained priests, which was only mentioned in
a small portion of the new test., why aren't priests a small part of Cath. rather
than almost the whole thing
[21/Oct/2003:22:37:05] <Father Phillip> i certainly hope that priests
aren't anywhere near "the whole thing" in the Catholic Church
[21/Oct/2003:22:37:22] <Father Phillip> but unfortunately, i'm
afraid you may be pretty darned close to being right
[21/Oct/2003:22:37:24] <Father Phillip> :-(
[21/Oct/2003:22:37:28] <Father Phillip> not a good thing
[21/Oct/2003:22:37:41] <Father Phillip> our Bishop is the most
wonderful person on the face of the earth
[21/Oct/2003:22:37:47] <Father Phillip> and he has said many times:
[21/Oct/2003:22:38:06] <Father Phillip> "Remember that Jesus
came to start what was, essentially, a lay movement."
[21/Oct/2003:22:38:35] <Father Phillip> i'm afraid it has way too
much to do with power and control -- sinful uses or rather mis-uses of authority
[21/Oct/2003:22:38:38] <Father Phillip> God forgive us!
[21/Oct/2003:22:38:50] <Father Phillip> but on the other hand,
don't throw the baby out with the bath water!
[21/Oct/2003:22:38:58] <Father Phillip> and besides that
[21/Oct/2003:22:39:11] <Father Phillip> it's kind of dangerous
to read the Bible by percentages
[21/Oct/2003:22:39:35] <Father Phillip> it's the over all "tenor"
and "direction" of the Scripture that seems most important to me
[21/Oct/2003:22:39:50] <Father Phillip> but we each have to follow
our own consciences in matters like that, i suppose
Personal Relationship With Jesus
[21/Oct/2003:22:40:51] <Father Phillip> ktrene: My mom is very
hesitant with the term "personal relationship with Jesus" and i understand,
but I do believe that it is possible, for me the definition of a personal relationship
is that I seek God daily and learn more about Jesus' ministry and I allow the
Holy Spirit into my body to guide me, she always questions "how can i have
a personal relationship with Jesus who is dead"
[21/Oct/2003:22:41:12] <Father Phillip> you are right on the money!
[21/Oct/2003:22:41:16] <Father Phillip> and Jesus isn't dead
[21/Oct/2003:22:41:24] <Father Phillip> Jesus is more alive than
we are!
[21/Oct/2003:22:41:54] <Father Phillip> He is resurrected, fully
alive in heaven and here on earth among us through His Spirit and His people
[21/Oct/2003:22:42:02] <Father Phillip> ktrene: it's as though
she forgets he conquered death and is alive, but since the terminology os Personal
relationship isn't used in Catholicism what do you think about it?
[21/Oct/2003:22:42:32] <Father Phillip> i would say that every
time a Catholic receives Holy Communion, he/she is forming/deepening his/her
personal relationshipo with Jesus
[21/Oct/2003:22:43:40] <Father Phillip> and btw, "personal
relationship with Jesus" is a perfectly ok term for Catholics to use --
we just need not to bashful about it
[21/Oct/2003:22:43:43] <Father Phillip> :-)
[21/Oct/2003:22:44:04] <Father Phillip> ktrene: i don't know about
that, i know people who 100% refute Christianity, but go to church with parents,
and obviously take the communion
[21/Oct/2003:22:44:42] <Father Phillip> i guess i'd say that i
don't know what's in anybody's heart...so i'm reluctant to say that any person
absolutely refutes Christianity 100%
[21/Oct/2003:22:45:12] <Father Phillip> i'm just a hopelessly optimistic
person, i suppose
[21/Oct/2003:22:45:45] <Father Phillip> if a person is in Church
-- even if he/she is there kicking and screaming -- there is something, somewhere
inside of them that is in God's Presence
[21/Oct/2003:22:46:21] <Father Phillip> ktrene: i would just say
the only way to deepen a relationship with Jesus is purely intentional not obedience
or an action (communion)
[21/Oct/2003:22:46:27] <Father Phillip> ktrene: yeah thats true
[21/Oct/2003:22:46:51] <Father Phillip> i'd have to disagree with
you about "the only way"
[21/Oct/2003:22:47:00] <Father Phillip> it's probably the BEST
way
[21/Oct/2003:22:47:18] <Father Phillip> but Jesus is always the
One Who takes the initiative
[21/Oct/2003:22:47:26] <Father Phillip> it's called the prevenience
of grace
[21/Oct/2003:22:47:54] <Father Phillip> Jesus is always out there,
inviting us, urging us, begging us -- out in front of us, leading, guiding,
cajoling
[21/Oct/2003:22:48:06] <Father Phillip> and we are ALWAYS responding
to Jesus
[21/Oct/2003:22:48:21] <Father Phillip> and lots of times we respond
without having a clue that it's Jesus
[21/Oct/2003:22:48:37] <Father Phillip> we just move in a certain
direction because it seems like a good idea or whatever
[21/Oct/2003:22:49:15] <Father Phillip> and we have no intention
whatever of forming a relationship with Jesus, but Jeus has every intention
of forming a personal relationship with us
[21/Oct/2003:22:49:18] <Father Phillip> ktrene: sorry urgin us
to what (i mean i know what i believe) but what are you saying that Jesus is
urging us to do?
[21/Oct/2003:22:49:26] <Father Phillip> urging us to be our truest
selves
[21/Oct/2003:22:49:32] <Father Phillip> urging us to love Him
[21/Oct/2003:22:49:46] <Father Phillip> urging us to be compassionate
toward ourselves and toward all other creatures
[21/Oct/2003:22:49:52] <Father Phillip> urging us to work for justice
[21/Oct/2003:22:50:03] <Father Phillip> urgining us to forgive
those who have hurt us
[21/Oct/2003:22:50:14] <Father Phillip> urging us to see God at
work everywhere in the world
[21/Oct/2003:22:50:24] <Father Phillip> urging us to be grateful
for all that we have
[21/Oct/2003:22:50:37] <Father Phillip> urging us to share what
we have with the least among us
[21/Oct/2003:22:50:44] <Father Phillip> got the general gist of
it?
[21/Oct/2003:22:50:45] <Father Phillip> :-)
[21/Oct/2003:22:51:39] <Father Phillip> ktrene: okay next question...
[21/Oct/2003:22:51:45] <Father
Phillip> ktrene: why is it that as a Catholic I was barely ever taught
about a working Satan and spiritual warfare, that Satan can be working deceitfully
in my life as well
[21/Oct/2003:22:51:57] <Father Phillip> i have no clue why YOU
weren't taught about this stuff
[21/Oct/2003:22:52:41] <Father Phillip> all i can say is that while
Catholics do indeed believe that the enemy of our human nature is prowling around
like a lion looking for somebody to devour
[21/Oct/2003:22:52:50] <Father Phillip> and
[21/Oct/2003:22:53:11] <Father Phillip> while we do believe that
the counter-spirit is trying to work deceitfully in all our lives
[21/Oct/2003:22:53:24] <Father Phillip> we try to focus on the
goodness and grace and compassion of God
[21/Oct/2003:22:53:39] <Father Phillip> only God will allow us
to triumph over the evil one
[21/Oct/2003:22:53:58] <Father Phillip> and so we try to do what,
again Hebrews, tell us to do:
[21/Oct/2003:22:54:05] <Father Phillip> Keep your eyes fixed on
Jesus
[21/Oct/2003:22:54:18] <Father Phillip> and Jesus will take care
of that other, "bad" stuff
[21/Oct/2003:22:54:23] <Father Phillip> BooDoo: What is the church's
position on Homosexuality
[21/Oct/2003:22:54:36] <Father Phillip> hello
[21/Oct/2003:22:54:48] <Father Phillip> glad to welcome you to
our conversation
[21/Oct/2003:22:55:13] <Father Phillip> BooDoo: sorry I guess I
didn't get the format or process
[21/Oct/2003:22:55:19] <Father Phillip> nothing to be sorry about
[21/Oct/2003:22:55:23] <Father Phillip> we're glad you're here
[21/Oct/2003:22:55:31] <Father Phillip> ktrene have been having
a conversation
[21/Oct/2003:22:55:37] <Father Phillip> and now we're glad you're
here with us
[21/Oct/2003:22:55:49] <Father Phillip> ktrene: welcome!
[21/Oct/2003:22:55:55] <Father Phillip> see; told you so!
[21/Oct/2003:22:55:56] <Father Phillip> :-)
[21/Oct/2003:22:56:03] <Father Phillip> BooDoo: thanks
[21/Oct/2003:22:56:31] <Father Phillip> so everybody ok with talking
for a minute about homosexuality?
[21/Oct/2003:22:57:04] <Father Phillip> ktrene: Ft. Phillip I'm
going to get off but I'd like to chat again next Tues. God graanted me with
a quetioning mind! Where can I get this week's transcript so I can reread it
later?
[21/Oct/2003:22:57:36] <Father Phillip> ok -- have a good evening...the
transcript for this evening won't be posted until probably this coming monday
[21/Oct/2003:22:57:49] <Father Phillip> but just go to the main
QandA page
[21/Oct/2003:22:57:57] <Father Phillip> and go the "virtual
library"
[21/Oct/2003:22:58:06] <Father Phillip> there you'll find past
transcripts
[21/Oct/2003:22:58:10] <Father Phillip> by date and by subject
[21/Oct/2003:22:58:29] <Father Phillip> ktrene: okay wonderful
thank you so much for your patience! Adios
[21/Oct/2003:22:58:32] <Father Phillip> ciao!
[21/Oct/2003:22:58:45] <Father Phillip> BooDoo: sorry I didn't
mean to run anyone off. I just thought you got the questions and then answered
them as you had time or if you felt they were appropriate.
[21/Oct/2003:22:58:50] <Father Phillip> no -- it's fine
[21/Oct/2003:22:58:56] <Father Phillip> you're not running anybody
off
[21/Oct/2003:22:59:11] <Father Phillip> and that is pretty much
what we do
[21/Oct/2003:22:59:24] <Father Phillip> ktrene really was about
ready to go
[21/Oct/2003:22:59:29] <Father Phillip> so it's not a problem
Click here to read more information on this topic.
[21/Oct/2003:22:59:40]
<Father Phillip> so, about your homosexual question...
[21/Oct/2003:22:59:43] <Father Phillip> ok?
[21/Oct/2003:23:00:00] <Father Phillip> BooDoo: yes that would
be good
[21/Oct/2003:23:00:04] <Father Phillip> ok, cool
[21/Oct/2003:23:00:27] <Father Phillip> the Church teaches that
one of God's great gifts to humankind is the gift of being sexual
[21/Oct/2003:23:00:36] <Father Phillip> no prefixes, just being
sexual
[21/Oct/2003:23:00:52] <Father Phillip> the Church teaches that
any good gift from God can be misused
[21/Oct/2003:23:01:08] <Father Phillip> and of course, the gift
of being sexual can be misused
[21/Oct/2003:23:01:26] <Father Phillip> the Church teaches that
sex in marriage has two primary "ends
[21/Oct/2003:23:01:33] <Father Phillip> one is procreative
[21/Oct/2003:23:01:42] <Father Phillip> to bring new human beings
into the world
[21/Oct/2003:23:01:46] <Father Phillip> the other is unitive
[21/Oct/2003:23:01:56] <Father Phillip> to bring the couple closer
in love and harmony
[21/Oct/2003:23:02:28] <Father Phillip> now, the Church says that
genital expressions of sexuality should be used only in the context of marriage
[21/Oct/2003:23:02:56] <Father Phillip> so, on that basis, the
Church, for instance, that masturbation is an inappropriate use of the gift
of sexuality
[21/Oct/2003:23:03:04] <Father Phillip> specifically about homosexuality
[21/Oct/2003:23:03:16] <Father Phillip> the Church says the it
is a "disordered affection"
[21/Oct/2003:23:03:35] <Father Phillip> the propensity to tell
lies is also a "disordered affection"
[21/Oct/2003:23:03:44] <Father Phillip> does that make any sense?
[21/Oct/2003:23:04:50] <Father Phillip> BooDoo: All of it does
except when you get to the disordered affection piece. I guess you mean that
is viewed as sinful
[21/Oct/2003:23:04:54] <Father Phillip> not exactly
[21/Oct/2003:23:05:11] <Father Phillip> simply having a disordered
affection is not sinful in itself
[21/Oct/2003:23:05:30] <Father Phillip> but acting on the disordered
affection is what can become sinful
[21/Oct/2003:23:06:00] <Father Phillip> BooDoo: So if a homosexual
is sexual than that would be a sin
[21/Oct/2003:23:06:28] <Father Phillip> the Church teaches that
genital expressions of sexuality between persons of the same gender are sinful...yes
[21/Oct/2003:23:07:58] <Father Phillip> BooDoo: That is what I
suspected but wasn't sure. I know at Mass you often speak of the injustices
that are done to homosexuals so I know you are very compassionate with regard
to their issues
[21/Oct/2003:23:08:13] <Father Phillip> i hope that i am compassionate
to the issues of all people
[21/Oct/2003:23:08:15] <Father Phillip> :-)
[21/Oct/2003:23:08:31] <Father Phillip> BooDoo: That is what I
suspected but wasn't sure. I know at Mass you often speak of the injustices
that are done to homosexuals so I know you are very compassionate with regard
to their issues
[21/Oct/2003:23:09:01] <Father Phillip> oops...sorry -- hit the
wrong button and so repeated that last statement
[21/Oct/2003:23:09:58] <Father Phillip> burns: Heh . . . I know
I'm jumping in at the last moment, but I was wondering why we believe that homosexuals
cannot be married.
[21/Oct/2003:23:10:15] <Father Phillip> 's cool, man...or woman...i
don't know which :-)
[21/Oct/2003:23:11:09]
<Father Phillip> the Church has a very strong conviction that marriage
can only be between one man and one woman
[21/Oct/2003:23:11:16] <Father Phillip> burns: What was that?
[21/Oct/2003:23:11:27] <Father Phillip> whether you're a man or
woman -- but it's no big deal :-)
Homosexuality and Catholicism
Click here to read more information on this topic.
[21/Oct/2003:23:11:35] <Father Phillip> BooDoo: I have a brother
and sister who are both gay and it is so obvious that they are not created as
typically male or female.Neither of them have any interests or behaviors similar
to the gender that they are. It is hard to believe that God would create them
as they are and that they would have to endure the hardships of being so very
different and then not be able to express themselves sexually or in a relastionship
is so sad
[21/Oct/2003:23:12:06] <Father Phillip> that sadness almost breaks
my heart
[21/Oct/2003:23:12:29] <Father Phillip> BooDoo: Mine too
[21/Oct/2003:23:12:38] <Father Phillip> God bless you!
[21/Oct/2003:23:12:47] <Father Phillip> they are blessed to have
such a sibling as you
[21/Oct/2003:23:12:58] <Father Phillip> God doesn't make junk
[21/Oct/2003:23:13:13] <Father Phillip> God makes beautiful persons
[21/Oct/2003:23:13:27] <Father Phillip> and we must cherish each
and every one of them just exactly as God made them
[21/Oct/2003:23:13:31] <Father Phillip> BooDoo: thanks for your
help. You are a wonderful gift to your parish
[21/Oct/2003:23:13:36] <Father Phillip> thank you
[21/Oct/2003:23:13:41] <Father Phillip> but it's not my parish
[21/Oct/2003:23:13:44] <Father Phillip> it's OUR parish!
[21/Oct/2003:23:14:19] <Father Phillip> BooDoo: Acutally I thought
I had typed our parish because I do feel that it is ours
[21/Oct/2003:23:14:25] <Father Phillip> good for you!
[21/Oct/2003:23:14:26] <Father Phillip> it is
[21/Oct/2003:23:14:28] <Father Phillip> good night
[21/Oct/2003:23:14:32] <Father Phillip> sleep well
Marriage
Click here to read more information on this topic.
[21/Oct/2003:23:14:41] <Father Phillip> burns: Why does the church
feel so strongly that marriage is meant for one man and one woman?
[21/Oct/2003:23:14:54] <Father Phillip> hello
[21/Oct/2003:23:14:59] <Father Phillip> BooDoo: Thanks. Have a
good night.
[21/Oct/2003:23:15:03] <Father Phillip> burns: Hi. : )
[21/Oct/2003:23:15:06] <Father Phillip> burns: Or is it founded
in Tradition?
[21/Oct/2003:23:15:13] <Father Phillip> hummm...about marriage?
[21/Oct/2003:23:15:22] <Father Phillip> burns: Yes.
[21/Oct/2003:23:15:37] <Father Phillip> i suppose most people would
say that it's both
[21/Oct/2003:23:16:03] <Father Phillip> surely the Bible seems
to be pretty clear about marriage being a male/female sort of thing
[21/Oct/2003:23:16:07] <Father Phillip> burns: I see the basis
for it in the Bible.
[21/Oct/2003:23:16:11] <Father Phillip> burns: But not totally.
[21/Oct/2003:23:16:22] <Father Phillip> so, help me understand
what you mean, please
[21/Oct/2003:23:17:34] <Father Phillip> burns: The Bible is also
clear on priesthood being a Levite thing.
[21/Oct/2003:23:17:38] <Father Phillip> burns: But we haven't stuck
to that.
[21/Oct/2003:23:17:42] <Father Phillip> burns: So apparently there
needs to be some other qualifier to make it a belief of the Church.
[21/Oct/2003:23:17:47] <Father Phillip> burns: And I guess I was
wondering how we can distinguish between the things that are Tradition and the
things that are tradition.
[21/Oct/2003:23:17:54] <Father Phillip> you're pretty sharp!
[21/Oct/2003:23:18:11] <Father Phillip> the technical answer is
[21/Oct/2003:23:18:32] <Father Phillip> the Tradition is what the
magisterium determines is the Tradition
[21/Oct/2003:23:18:36] <Father Phillip> burns: Heh . . . thanks
. . . I have a good pastor.
[21/Oct/2003:23:18:41] <Father Phillip> lucky person!
[21/Oct/2003:23:18:44] <Father Phillip> :-)
[21/Oct/2003:23:19:00] <Father Phillip> but that's a somewhat circular
argument
[21/Oct/2003:23:19:04] <Father Phillip> burns: (it's you) ; )
[21/Oct/2003:23:19:08] <Father Phillip> blushing
[21/Oct/2003:23:19:11] <Father Phillip> anyway...
[21/Oct/2003:23:19:21] <Father Phillip> burns: A little bit . .
. does the magisterium ever change its mind?
[21/Oct/2003:23:19:26] <Father Phillip> yes, actually, it does
[21/Oct/2003:23:19:30] <Father Phillip> BUT
[21/Oct/2003:23:19:49] <Father Phillip> when that happens they
dress it up in language that makes it SEEM as though they're not
[21/Oct/2003:23:20:04] <Father Phillip> technically it's called
"the development of doctrine"
[21/Oct/2003:23:20:07] <Father Phillip> burns: Heh . . . beautiful.
[21/Oct/2003:23:20:20] <Father Phillip> true -- but it's not all
bad, really!
[21/Oct/2003:23:21:02] <Father Phillip> it's the kind of thing
that uses the analogy: an acorn is different than an oak tree...but they're
really the same thing, blah, blah, blah
[21/Oct/2003:23:21:05] <Father Phillip> burns: When Galileo did
the whole earth, sun thing . . . was he seen as rejecting the Tradition?
[21/Oct/2003:23:21:12] <Father Phillip> yes, that's a very good
examply
[21/Oct/2003:23:21:19] <Father Phillip> example
[21/Oct/2003:23:21:52] <Father Phillip> and he was condemned (though
not killed) for rejecting the Tradition
[21/Oct/2003:23:22:54] <Father Phillip> burns: So, although we
believe the magisterium is the teaching authority of the church, we are free
to reject its teachings?
[21/Oct/2003:23:22:56] <Father Phillip> no
[21/Oct/2003:23:23:05] <Father Phillip> we're not free to reject
its teaching
[21/Oct/2003:23:23:09] <Father Phillip> burns: But they might be
wrong?
[21/Oct/2003:23:23:40] <Father Phillip> we believe that God protects
the Church in matters of faith and morals when the Church speaks in a definitive
way
[21/Oct/2003:23:23:53] <Father Phillip> there are several ways
that the Church can speak definitively
[21/Oct/2003:23:24:25] <Father Phillip> but we certainly know that
the Church can be wrong -- and has been -- on issues that are not essential
to the depositum fidei
[21/Oct/2003:23:24:30] <Father Phillip> burns: So those things
spoken by the Pope from the throne of Peter are the only things we really have
to hold onto as our Catholic faith?
Back
to the Top
[21/Oct/2003:23:24:47] <Father Phillip> we do have to believe papal
ex cathedra statements
[21/Oct/2003:23:24:51] <Father Phillip> two of them so far
[21/Oct/2003:23:25:14] <Father Phillip> ever
[21/Oct/2003:23:25:25] <Father Phillip> one in 1854; the other
in 1950
[21/Oct/2003:23:25:37] <Father Phillip> burns: Wow . . . were they
with regards to Mary?
[21/Oct/2003:23:25:40] <Father Phillip> yepper
[21/Oct/2003:23:25:48] <Father Phillip> 1854 = Immaculate Conception
[21/Oct/2003:23:25:56] <Father Phillip> 1950 = Bodily Assumption
[21/Oct/2003:23:26:17] <Father Phillip> but our consciences are
also bound by conciliar de fidei statements
[21/Oct/2003:23:26:49] <Father Phillip> and our consciences by
those things which are held by the "consensus fidelium"
[21/Oct/2003:23:26:52] <Father Phillip> burns: Wow . . . I didn't
realize ex cathedra statements were such an exclusive club.
[21/Oct/2003:23:26:59] <Father Phillip> about as exclusive as you
can get!
[21/Oct/2003:23:27:06] <Father Phillip> :-)
[21/Oct/2003:23:27:17] <Father Phillip> i'll never make it into
that club!
[21/Oct/2003:23:27:28] <Father Phillip> burns: Ha!
[21/Oct/2003:23:28:11] <Father Phillip> burns: So these are different
levels of statements, and it is clear when they are being made what category
they fall into?
[21/Oct/2003:23:28:20] <Father Phillip> there are, indeed, different
levels of statements
[21/Oct/2003:23:28:34] <Father Phillip> and it is usually pretty
clear when they are made what category they fall into
[21/Oct/2003:23:28:39] <Father Phillip> that's not always the case
[21/Oct/2003:23:28:47] <Father Phillip> but pretty much it's clear-ish
[21/Oct/2003:23:29:47] <Father Phillip> burns: Does the doctrine
of marriage between one man and one woman fall into one of those statement categories?
[21/Oct/2003:23:30:38] <Father Phillip> hummmm...i would guess
that most all of the bishops -- who really constitute the magisterium -- would
say that marriage between one man and one woman fill into one of those really,
really binding categories
[21/Oct/2003:23:31:05] <Father Phillip> since it's a Sacrament
and all
[21/Oct/2003:23:31:50] <Father Phillip> burns: Yes. : ) However,
was there ever a binding statement that married men could not become priests,
ever?
[21/Oct/2003:23:32:03] <Father Phillip> no -- not really
[21/Oct/2003:23:32:25] <Father Phillip> celibacy for priests is
looked at as a "disciplinary" issue
[21/Oct/2003:23:32:29] <Father Phillip> burns: But Holy Orders
is a Sacrament, too. ; )
[21/Oct/2003:23:32:35] <Father Phillip> you're very right, of course
[21/Oct/2003:23:32:52] <Father Phillip> but there has always been
a fact of married clergy
[21/Oct/2003:23:32:56] <Father Phillip> burns: Heh, sorry . . .
Devil's Advocate
[21/Oct/2003:23:33:05] <Father Phillip> not at all: Truth's Advocate!
[21/Oct/2003:23:33:06] <Father Phillip> :-)
[21/Oct/2003:23:33:20] <Father Phillip> burns: Heh . . . I like
that better.
[21/Oct/2003:23:33:23] <Father Phillip> me too!
[21/Oct/2003:23:33:34] <Father Phillip> remember that the first
Pope was married
[21/Oct/2003:23:34:04] <Father Phillip> so celibacy is not intrinsic
to the fabric of holy orders
[21/Oct/2003:23:34:10] <Father Phillip> burns: In Paul's epistles.
. . .
[21/Oct/2003:23:34:14] <Father Phillip> burns: (now cut me some
leeway here on my Bible skills . . . I'm Catholic)
[21/Oct/2003:23:34:19] <Father Phillip> baaaaaadddddd!
[21/Oct/2003:23:34:22] <Father Phillip> :-)
[21/Oct/2003:23:34:25] <Father Phillip> burns: I believe he has
a discourse on the qualities of a good candidate for a Bishop (or something
of the like)
[21/Oct/2003:23:34:35] <Father Phillip> burns: heh
[21/Oct/2003:23:34:44] <Father Phillip> burns: He mentions that
he should be husband of only one wife.
[21/Oct/2003:23:34:51] <Father Phillip> corretamundo
[21/Oct/2003:23:34:57] <Father Phillip> correctamundo
[21/Oct/2003:23:34:59] <Father Phillip> got it
[21/Oct/2003:23:35:00] <Father Phillip> anyway
[21/Oct/2003:23:35:24] <Father Phillip> actually, it is in one
of the pseudo-pauline letters, but you're absolutely right
[21/Oct/2003:23:35:28] <Father Phillip> burns: Now . . . if that
were assumed for all Christians . . . why would it be necessary to mention especially
for a Bishop?
[21/Oct/2003:23:35:38] <Father Phillip> if what were assumed?
[21/Oct/2003:23:35:43] <Father Phillip> burns: Okay, pseudo-pauline.
; )
[21/Oct/2003:23:36:04] <Father Phillip> burns: That all Christian
men should be husband to only one wife.
[21/Oct/2003:23:36:07] <Father Phillip> good point
[21/Oct/2003:23:36:17] <Father Phillip> i'm not sure really
[21/Oct/2003:23:36:55] <Father Phillip> i suspect it has more to
do with saying that a bishop ought not to go around marrying lots of women --
even serially
[21/Oct/2003:23:37:01] <Father Phillip> but i'm really not sure
[21/Oct/2003:23:37:11] <Father Phillip> burns: I see. . . .
[21/Oct/2003:23:37:28]
<Father Phillip> burns: When was Matrimony declared a Sacrament?
[21/Oct/2003:23:37:35] <Father Phillip> it was "always"
a Sacrament
[21/Oct/2003:23:37:51] <Father Phillip> but i believe that it wasn't
until Trent that it was articulated by the Church as such
[21/Oct/2003:23:38:05] <Father Phillip> which would have been in
the middle of the 16th century
[21/Oct/2003:23:38:22] <Father Phillip> but that's not to say that
it only became a Sacrament at that point
[21/Oct/2003:23:38:25] <Father Phillip> burns: Do we believe there
were Sacraments prior to the coming of Christ?
[21/Oct/2003:23:38:30] <Father Phillip> not really
[21/Oct/2003:23:38:59] <Father Phillip> Sacraments are means by
which the grace of CHRIST are made present within the community of the Church
[21/Oct/2003:23:39:32] <Father Phillip> so, there were rituals
and ceremonies before Christ which God used to communicate divine grace and
presence, but they weren't "sacraments" in the technical sense of
the word
[21/Oct/2003:23:39:49] <Father Phillip> burns: So then . . . really,
there would have been no Sacraments until after the Resurrection of Christ because
prior to that, he was physically present
[21/Oct/2003:23:39:54] <Father Phillip> precisely
[21/Oct/2003:23:39:59] <Father Phillip> good theological mind here!
[21/Oct/2003:23:40:16] <Father Phillip> burns: Heh : )
[21/Oct/2003:23:40:57] <Father Phillip> burns: Prior to Christ,
plural marriages were accepted. . . .
[21/Oct/2003:23:41:17] <Father Phillip> yes, in the Hebrew Bible
there is lots of evidence of something akin to polygamy
[21/Oct/2003:23:42:11] <Father Phillip> if you're interested in
a look at marriage in the medieval period, John Boswell wrote an interesting
though highly technical book on the subject, with a lot of info on "gay
marriages"
[21/Oct/2003:23:42:16] <Father Phillip> burns: Then, at the coming
of Christ, when two Baptized members of the Church married one another, the
began conferring a Sacrament upon one another.
[21/Oct/2003:23:42:25] <Father Phillip> once again: you're right
on the money
[21/Oct/2003:23:42:48] <Father Phillip> burns: John Boswell. I'll
write that down.
[21/Oct/2003:23:42:52] <Father Phillip> he was brilliant
[21/Oct/2003:23:43:07] <Father Phillip> died at an early age, tragic
loss to the academy
[21/Oct/2003:23:44:23] <Father Phillip> burns: Perhaps I should
do some reading on the subject and return with some more educated questions.
; )
[21/Oct/2003:23:44:37] <Father Phillip> perhaps i should go to
bed -- since i'm old and tired!
[21/Oct/2003:23:44:46] <Father Phillip> but your questions are
EXCELLENT
[21/Oct/2003:23:44:52] <Father Phillip> don't put yourself down!
[21/Oct/2003:23:45:36] <Father Phillip> burns: Thanks! : )
[21/Oct/2003:23:45:40] <Father Phillip> you betcha
[21/Oct/2003:23:45:53] <Father Phillip> burns: And thanks for staying
way past the allotted time.
[21/Oct/2003:23:45:56] <Father Phillip> my pleasure
[21/Oct/2003:23:46:00] <Father Phillip> you're a lovely person
[21/Oct/2003:23:46:02] <Father Phillip> take care
[21/Oct/2003:23:46:10] <Father Phillip> burns: Have a really good
night. : )
[21/Oct/2003:23:46:13] <Father Phillip> already have!
[21/Oct/2003:23:46:15] <Father Phillip> ciao
[21/Oct/2003:23:46:21] <Father Phillip> burns: Bye.